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Cual es vos pensa sur la introdui de un distingui entre "nos incluinte" e "nos escluinte"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clusivity

  • Me opina ce la contesto sufisi per fa la distingui. Simon
    • me recorda alga conversas cuando la otra conversor ia xerca un disambigui; ma cisa el es rara
    • Lo es estrema rara en mea esperia, serta sufisinte rara per no merita un complica a la gramatica. E natural, cuando un disambigui es desirada, no cosa preveni ce on furni lo :) Simon
      • si, me acorda!

---

Me nota ce elefen es un poca tro "rijida": el pare ave un sola register (manca en la disionario), la formal. pe en la lista longa "hickey" > "marca de besa". cisa el es intendente, car vos ta vole ce la usa en la realia va crea la parolas informal?

  • La disionario conteni un cuantia peti de parolas nonformal o demotica, ma serta los no es multe. Nos ta pote ajunta plu, ma esce on nesesa los en un lingua aidante? Simil, nos ta pote laxi la regulas gramatical per permete otra stilos, ma la resulta ta es un caos, no? An tal, si elefen ta deveni plu vasta usada, lo ta oteni plu jergo, usante metafores o parolas nova. A cada ves cuando on usa un parola, en cualce lingua, la sinifia de la parola deveni pico cambiada par la situa; esta fenomeno funsiona ja ance en elefen, sin duta. Simon
    • tu dise bon. Me ia pensa elefen como un lingua sustituante. Ma como nos va tradui la leteratur? en multa multa libros la "rejistre" es importante. Me pensa ance a la parolas de orijin medieval (milady, damsel) usada en alga libros (pe alga "fantasy") per crea un ambiente evocante.
    • Si, lo es un problem difisil. Esperanto batalia ja lo tra multe desenios: leteraturistes desira (e ia construi) un vocabulo sutil e espresosa de parolas cual parlores comun no conose an! Me acorda ce la rejistras es importante en leteratur. En mea tradui de Alisia en la pais de mervelias, me ia encontra la problem a plu ca un ves (e complicada par la usa de rejistras istorial cual no esiste plu en engles). En la capitol 4, on ave un carater Pat ci pare parla en manera eres. Me ia "tradui" esta par omete mera alga vocales nonasentuada e usa multe la espresa "bon serta": "Ma me 's asi, bon serta! Me 'scava la pomas, S'nior!" Me no es sasiada par esta, ma la posibles ia es limitada. Simon
    • Per tradui "damsel", on ta usa cisa "senioreta". Per "milady", cisa "mea nobilesa" (ajuntante la sufisa anticin -esa per indica un fem)? Ultima, si on vole tradui un testo de engles e reteni tota sutiles de vocabulo e stilo, cisa on peri sua tempo. Como on pote reteni en un lingua romanica la sabor de un lingua germanica, con parolas composada, ajetivos prenomal, e casos? Simon
      • si, tradui literatur es multa difisil ance entre linguas natural, perce a multe veses en literatur la parolas ajunta a sua sinifia ance la _istoria_ de sua usa. Me no pensa ce nos pote construi el artifis.
      • Alga linguas inventada, per esemplo verdurian, es acompaniada par un mundo imajinada con un propre cultur rica cual influe la vocabulo. Ma linguas aidante abita un otra stange. (On pote crea metafores nova e stimulante en elefen, an tal, como "abita un otra stange"; la sola restrinje es ce los debe es internasional comprendable.) Simon
        • si, me pensa ce elefen ance va ave multa metafores e parolas evocante cuando el ta es plu usada. Grasias per la iperlia, multe divertinte =D
        • Pensante plu a esta tema interesante, me ia recorda ia esiste de tre varias de esperanto creada par Manuel Halvelik: Arcaicam Esperantom per tradui testos anticin; Gavaro per tradui la parla dial; e Popido per tradui testos dialetal. Me nota ance ce la fonotatica de elefen ta conveni eselente a un varia de verlan o vesre: un traduor de leteratur ta pote crea un lobucavo de laropas tacrese per apare en la cabos de la carateres. Simon
          • multe grasias per tua iperlias, me ama tal informas; e tua esemplos mostra perfeta ce elefen es un lingua nivel con la linguas natural, el nesesa sola un popla ce parla el en la vive dial. Per "hickey", tu pensa ce "suceta" ta pote ajunta el a sua sinifia (demotica)? en espaniol "chupeton", italian "succhiotto" (el sinifia ance "pacifier" e "lollipop")
          • Si, "suceta" pare un bon idea. La sufisa -eta es bon per formi parolas pico idiomal. (Nota ce "el" no sinifia "it": tu vole "lo".) Simon
            • bon, e grasias per la coreti!


  • nota ce nos ave un introdui a un istoria imajinal en la testo a https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Lingua_Franca_Nova (capitol 23):
    • Imajina un isola en la Mar Mediteraneo, entre Sardinia e Minorca, clamada la Isola Franca. "Franca" es la nom donada a la persones de la ueste par la arabis ci naviga la Mediteraneo en edas antica. Franca es ance un parola cual sinifia un person ci parla direta e no dise cual el no intende. La popla de la isola ia es orgulosa de sua isola, sua identia, e sua lingua.
    • La isola es abitada par la desendentes de persones de cada pais de la Mediteraneo e de otra locas ance. Los es la desendentes de comersiores, piratas, soldatos, marinores, furores, sclavos, e multe otra persones, bon e mal. Per comunica entre esta misca diversa, la popla ia usa parolas de italian, catalan, espaniol, portuges, e franses, ma con un gramatica multe simple.
    • Resente, la popla ia deside ce sua lingua nesesa un forma ofisial, con un spele simple e coerente. Cuando la linguistes de la isola ia fini sua laboras, los ia demanda ce la popla vota si o no. Cuasi tota la persones francan ia vota "si" (estra alga omes vea ci vota sempre "no") e la lingua ia es fundida. Los ia clama esta lingua "la lingua franca nova", e persones ci parla esta lingua "la francanovistes".
    • Car la isola es vera peti, la mundo moderna no ia nota la pais, sua popla rara, e sua lingua strana. Ma linguistes de otra paises ia nota final la lingua, e ia reporta sur lo en sua jornales tecnical. E alga usores de la interede ia scrive articles en la lingua. Los ia nota ce lingua franca nova (o "elefen") es un lingua amable, plasente, e (si!) franca. De alora, un dia nova ia ariva per la francanovistes!
  • Algun (me no recorda ci) ia sujeste estende esta en naradas. Lo pare un bon idea a me!
  • me ia considera ance la posible de usa miscas de elefen con otra linguas per sujesta un parla local. on pote ance crea un jergo como lo en "clockwork orange" (cual usa parolas rusce con pronunsia engles), o un lingua como "newspeak" de "1984". la linguas como romani englesida usada par alga "travellers", o la misca de eres e engles usada par otra "travellers", ta es interesante. jorj
    • me acorda, e grasias per la iperlia, Jorj! Cual disposa tu sujesta per parla "magniloquent"? pe en la libro "The redemption of Altalus", paragrafes en "high" engles (parolas desusada, verbo ante pronom, "thee, thou", ...) es usada per nara lejendas de dios e avenis eroin. Personal, me pensa ce no es nesesada: "highness" debe veni de cosas grande, no de parolas grande; ma alga personas posible vole diferente
    • Me ia encontra esta problem en la tradui prima cual me ia fa en elefen: La cade de la Casa de Usor, cual ave tre sitas de tal parolosia sur la aventuras de "la bon campion Etelredo", prosima a la fini. En acel caso, la frases es estrema longa, e me ia reteni esta, fidante ce lo sufisi per redona la sabor a alga grado. Me es impresada par la modos cual Jorj ia sujesta per representa la parla eres, e me va es interesada par vide esce nos pote fa alga cosa simil per linguaje anticin o inflada! Simon

---

Hi, I'm a new user of LFN, sorry for the English. I'm astounded by the breadth and beauty of lexicon you managed to create — so first of all: many heartfelt compliments to you all.

I have some suggestion about "murmura" and "babela". Currently "murmura" is translated as "murmur, mumble; mutter, grumble"; "babela" as "babble, gab, gabble, mutter, gibber, witter, prattle, talk nonsense". 

Looking at the first, shouldn't "murmura" only mean "murmur", according to its definition?

  • Yes, I agree. I'm currently working through the dictionary, line by line, weeding out oddities like this, in preparation for a printed version that Evertype has kindly agreed to publish. I'm currently in the Js. Simon
    • multe bon! me ia nota ance ce "interesada" no es en la disionario
      • Me ia ajunta lo a la copia delinia sur cual me labora. Nos no inclui tota derivadas con -nte e -da, ma "interesada" es multe comun. Simon

"mumble" should be with "babble" under "babela", and "mutter, grumble" under a different word altogether (as they mean Complain or protest about something in a bad-tempered but typically muted way, Say something in a low or barely audible voice, especially in dissatisfaction or irritation; this is quite different from both murmura and babela). Looking at the second, "mutter" should be removed according to what I said before for "murmura".

  • We recently added "farfulia" for "slur, mumble" and "cexeta" for "grumble". Grumbling doesn't have to involve muttering, in my opinion. Simon
    • bela parolas! ma me no pensa a esta modo: cuando me pensa a un "grumbler" me vide un vea "muttering among himself", regardante a via
      • Esce tu es en America? Cisa la sinifia de "grumble" es pico diferente per me en Britan. Si me tape "define grumble" a Google, la responde es "complain about something in a bad-tempered way". La idea de mal umor pare importante en mea comprende de esta parola engles. Simon
        • a! me no es en America, ma me usa un disionario american! me xerca un parola ce tradui la parola espaniol "refunfuñar" e italian "brontolare" (elefen "brontola" o "gronca"? "br" e "gr" es multe bela par representa la ronca de un ce "brontola")

Also, "mumble" means not only "to babble", but also "to chew with toothless gums" (it came to mean "babble" because you are pronouncing badly, with difficulty, mangling words and sounds, almost like you were toothless); this meaning isn't covered by elefen. In italian a good counterpart to "mumble" is "biascicare" (from latin blaesus), covering both meanings — but I prefer the spanish "mascullar", which I find very beautiful, also considering the etymology (sort of diminutive form of "mascar", which means "swallowing without chewing", with the diminutive form conveying the idea of rolling the food in your mouth for a long time).

  • Mumbling on a bone. Yes, "masculia" would work well for that. A lovely word. Simon
    • multe bela, si!

What do you think?

On a different note, have you ever considered moving the development of the dictionary to a code sharing platform like github.com?

  • No, I actually hadn't, but now that you mention it, it's really not a bad idea. I've used GitHub for other things, and the dictionary would certain benefit from a better version-control and discussion system than what MediaWiki gives us here. Simon
    • lo es multe bon!
      • GitHub mesma es eselente e fasil per usa. Ma la sistem distribuida a su (Git mesma) pote es multe confondente per un nondevelopor (como Jorj), spesial si el vole edita direta la vocabulo, definis, etc. An tal, la vantajes de usa lo ta es grande. Nos ta pote pone ance la gramatica ala. Nos atenta ja incuba un vicipedia: si acel susede, nos ta pote move ance la leteratur de elefen a un casa nova e permete ce esta vici presente desapare gradal. Simon
        • lo es vera multe; par edita direta, aora esiste Github Desktop; me no ia proba, car me usa Linux, ma lo ta redui multe la difisilia de Git; me nota ance ce la comandas nesesada a nos es sola un parte poca.

The current way of adding or changing words seems a bit messy to me; the workflow on github.com would be creating an "Issue" about one and only one change (instead of "Sujestas (Agurol)" I would have created an issue "murmura / babela"), which could be labeled by mods ("needs opinions", "in progress", "enhancement", "on deck", "meaning disambiguation", "new word" for filtered browsing/searching), voted (thumbs up/down, smile, angry, and so on) and discussed by the community. All open and closed Issues would be easily and fully searchable/browsable, thus allowing new users to understand the design principles of LFN on the field (for example, I'd really like to dig up the discussions about removing the plural suffix which are mentioned in the FAQ).

  • Those discussions predate even my involvement with the language, so must have occurred before 2008. If you're interested in perusing old discussions (mostly written in earlier versions of the language), they're archived here. Simon
    • grasias, me cura multe de esta

Linguistics projects using it are for example The World Atlas Of Language Structures Online and Perseus. A non linguistics project where the power of this platform is particularly clear is atom. Github also provides free website hosting (and you are allowed to redirect "elefen.org" to it) and an integrated clean lightweight wiki. It would also allow automatic publishing on changes to the database.

As for dictionary.js, direct contribution to the database itself (through "pull requests" that can be discussed and reviewed just like "issues") could be encouraged by moving to the yaml file format. For example an entry could be:

parola: abea
part-of-speech (I can't find it in the dictionary, by the way): n
categorias:
- artr
sinifias:
- defini: un inseto volante e picante cual colie netar e polen de flores e produi miel e sira
  tason: Apis
  tradui:
  - en: bee, honey bee
  - eo: abelo
  - fr: abeille
  - he: דבו
derivas:
- parola: abea laborante
  part-of-speech: n
  en: worker bee
  he: דבורה פועלת
- parola: abea mas
  part-of-speech: n
  tradui:
  - en: drone
  - he: דבורה ממין זכר

Entries could be handily grouped in split files according to a criterion of choice, for example alphabetical. Automatic conversion from the current js file would be really easy.

  • YAML is very elegant, but it would be more verbose than the syntax we currently have (and which I've improved in the last month). The disionario.js file is currently generated automatically by a horrible PHP script that reads the data directly off this wiki, which is where we currently store and edit the master copy. I see no reason why we couldn't move the dictionary to GitHub in its current syntax. I would advise against doing this until the current work on preparing the printed version is complete: there's a limit to how many plates I can spin at once. Simon
    • me no ia sabe ce un sintatica par comanda ia esista ja!; serta, me acorda
      • La sintatica es esplicada asi. Serta nos no edita direta la fix disionario.js. Acel ta es simil a un malsonia! Simon
        • multe bon! me va regarda lo
  • Hello! I'll leave the technical questions to Simon, I just wanted to welcome you to this wiki. Its always nice to see new people here discovering and learning this beautiful creation. I hope you will enjoy your time with us. Bonveni a esta vici e a elefen! Isaac
    • grasias! me espeta zelosa esta lingua e comunia! me gusta multe la sua grasia e coere. Ance, lo es surprendente ce me comprende fasil ance si me ia comensa aora; me ave alga esita en scrive, ma lo es vera poca si me pensa ce lo es un lingua stranjer.
    • E bonveni ance de me, en pasa! Simon
      • grasias!
    • e de me! jorj
      • grasias!

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